Warren Telling Tales - A Hub For Creators

Episode 15 - Fraser Ayres - CEO and EXEC PROD/TriforceCreativeNetwork/Dandi/ITV/BBC

• Warren Tells Tales - Warren Adams • Season 2 • Episode 15

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We sit down with Fraser to discuss, his life, #tcn, #inclusivitynow #diversity #dandi and their impact on the entertainment industry.

Fraser is an award-winning actor/writer/director as well as CEO and founder of The TriForce Creative Network /dandi.org.uk; an organisation set up in 2003, with a core ethos of ‘inclusivity’ that promotes equal opportunities in the entertainment industry.
‘I am mixed race (Barbadian/Scottish), born and raised in Leicester, from a single parent, working class family, which very much informs all of my work on and off-screen. Inclusion and access aren’t merely political aims- they should be the cornerstones of not only our creative industry, but core to our societal responsibility - if you include everybody, you don’t need to exclude anyone.’
As an Executive Producer and Script Editor, Fraser has worked with the likes of Cormac McCarthy and Noel Clarke, as well as well as being responsible for creating the only comedy panel show about Black history - ‘Sorry, I Didn’t Know’.
Through his D&I organisations, Fraser has supported thousands of individuals from all walks of life to find their place in our industry, impacting greatly on on-screen representation over the past decade. Now, turning his attention to off-screen talent, Dandi.org.uk is working bespoke with the likes of Amazon, HBO, BBC, UKTV and over 50 production companies to ensure inclusive recruitment at all levels.
Creatively, Fraser received the 2021 Imison award and is responsible for creating and Producing the only comedy panel show about Black history - ‘Sorry, I Didn’t Know’. His writing includes the award winning In the Long Run, Eastenders, the upcoming CBBC Series Lagging, and radio productions such as Maynard for BBC Radio 4 (Imison Award finalist) and Space is the Place, a 5 part dramatization of the lives of the Jazz greats for Jazz FM. Fraser is currently writing on several projects including an original commissioned series for UKTV (Midsomer Murders meets Atlanta) based on his experiences of race and classism in a wealthy, idyllic village.
Beginning his creative career as an actor, Fraser’s highlights include being named The Guardian’s “Top Performer”, Time Out Best Performer, several The Stage Best Actor nominations and starring in The Smoking Room, Midsomer Murders, and NBC’s international miniseries, Kingdom and Empire. Movies include Patrice Chereau’s Intimacy, Alex Cox’s Revengers Tragedy & Noel Clarke’s AdultHood.
In his spare moments, Fraser does a lot of Yoga and plays with a lot of Lego.

Fraser Ayres Socials:
IG:   / realfraserayres  and TCN:   / thetcn 
FB:   / fraser.ayres 
Linked In:   / fraserayres 
Website: https://thetcn.com/ and http://dandi.org.uk/

Full copyright: Do not use this material as your own. Legal action will be taken.

Host Warren Adams - Warren Telling Tales
Website https://warrentellingtales.buzzsprout.com/
Warren Adams: IG   / warrenadamsactor  and   / warrentellingtales 
Facebook:   / warren.adams.351 
Linkedin:   / warren-adams-a3889641 
Twitter:   / actoradams​ 

Disclaimer: This episode contains some strong language in one acting clip.

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Clips courtesy of Fraser Ayres.


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SPEAKER_03

Hello everyone, welcome to today's episode. I am very excited. We have the one and only Fraser Ayers on the podcast today. Uh, he is an award-winning actor, a writer, a director, as well as the CEO and founder of the Triforce Creative Network and dandy.org.uk, an organization set up in 2003 with a core ethos on inclusivity that promotes equal opportunities in the entertainment industry. And we are gonna talk about all of that today. I'm very excited. How's things?

SPEAKER_04

You don't look like a dad, you don't look like you've got energy and like your eyes aren't dead and vacant yet.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. Well, I have I'm all right, mate. Yeah, I've I've I have good days and not and slightly more challenging days, but uh I'm I'm handling parenthood just about, I think. So uh wicked man. Um let's jump into how we actually know each other. Um we messed up. Yeah, we do have history. It's been it's been a long time. I was trying to work out the last time I actually saw you, but I think it would have been around and about 2013, something like that, which is uh at some sort of an event, a Triforce event. And um, because I was possibly welcome.

SPEAKER_04

One I think it might have been a party warrant, possibly was the last time we saw each other. There might have been a little bit of drinking and dancing, I think.

SPEAKER_03

There was yeah, there was definitely some dancing. I remember I remember that on the dance floor, and uh me and Jimmy were were trying to uh outdo each other.

SPEAKER_04

Um yeah, I guess the electric slide was in uh full effect at the end.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um I think I lost that battle actually with Jimmy, but anyway. Um yeah, good. So uh so yeah, roundabout then, and uh but before that we met in 2011. How was how was that experience for for yourself, Fraser, directing directing that show at the Soho Theatre? I I loved it, it was amazing, but we'll talk about that later.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, you know, as a director, it was it was a lot of fun. You know, that was back in the day with Triforce, what we were doing with these um what we call them the three Ps. And they were you know uh a play, a pint, and then poodle off home. And they were a way of bringing scripts to the fore, but in an environment, what we did was, you know, there was music, there was lighting, there was, you know, actors. We were we didn't ask you actors to be off book, but you know, there was a familiarity, so it was all about literally people getting to see kind of the play that was almost all already up. Um, and it was an incredible experience, you know. There was a lot we didn't have long, did we? I mean, we had like 24 hours to get a you know, rather than do a reading, to get it up on its feet, blocked, lit, music, the lot. Um, but to be honest, that experience, very much like an awful lot of Triforces early days, that hard burn, it teaches you a lot. Do you know what I mean? And that kind of experience you get in one day could be split over several months, but you kind of just get on it very, very quickly. And for me, it was that was definitely one of my favorite ones um of the three P's, and it was just really exciting, you know. No one was really doing that at that time, or you know, the readings that we were doing was just everyone sat around kind of mumbling into scripts. Do you know what I mean? To actually have diverse work from inclusive talent that was actually, you know, like I say, halfway there on a stage like So Theatre. Oh, it was so exciting, man. So exciting. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. It was um, I remember, yeah, it was a tight turnaround, but I kind of enjoyed that. And in in a way, I think that brought the best out of everyone, really, because we we, you know, there was no time to sort of ease yourself in, you just had to gaze at your navel and with motivation.

SPEAKER_06

Exactly, you know, nothing lost as actors in our own kind of mental conundrums.

SPEAKER_04

Do you know what I mean? Actually, it's like just it's that thing, isn't it? Why don't you try acting? You know, it's that thing when you're in that situation where it's like, here's the script, and in less than 24 hours, there's gonna be 300 people watching you do it. Like it forces you to get to that place quite quickly, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I remember myself and uh and Jordan, Jordan Pitt were uh outside the theatre and we were scrambling through the lines and trying to help each other out, get it, get it as familiar as we possibly could. And um, but it was such an amazing experience. We had so many cool people that came to to watch it, and I just remember the it was such a supportive audience as well. I really felt like they were on our side, and um I loved every minute. I still look back on that uh uh very fondly, and uh anytime I communicate with Jordan now, which doesn't happen all the time, but some some of the time I always I always reflect on that because I think that was the last thing I actually did with him. Prior to that, we were in university together. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_04

No, I didn't know that. I didn't know that happened. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_03

We studied together for three years, so when I realized he was involved in in the play, I was I was really excited because it was the first acting job I had done with him uh since we left, and uh yeah, it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, all these years later, finding out the info.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I know, I know. It just suddenly popped to my mind now. Um, good. So uh, and since then you've been you've been directing, you've been acting, you've been writing, you've won so many awards, um, and and uh you you you're involved in so many amazing productions. Let's talk about your acting uh your acting journey uh to begin with.

SPEAKER_06

You right Ricky?

SPEAKER_05

Where have you been?

SPEAKER_06

What the hell? But did I tell you? Why are you still here? Haven't you done enough damage?

SPEAKER_05

I've still got things to do.

SPEAKER_06

What things?

SPEAKER_05

Tonight for a start. Gideon doesn't need you for that.

SPEAKER_06

I can do everything that's necessary.

SPEAKER_04

I intend to finish what I've started. That's a really interesting one, actually. You know, um actually I think there's I think there's a couple of jobs, but for very different reasons. And just the way you phrased that, mate, was actually so I did uh a job called A D, um, which got retitled uh Kingdom and Empire. It was the NBC thing.

SPEAKER_06

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

And it's funny you saying that as well, because so when that came up, you know, I was just a fledgling actor, you know, I'd had a very nice career, very proud. You know, I'm not moaning about that. I feel very blessed. But as actors, there's always that job that is the right money, the right profile, the right role, and it's and it exists in our head as this kind of imaginated job that will just make everything okay, it'll make life better, it'll be the sense of completion we've all been looking for. You know, it's that job, yeah. And just the way you phrased that made me think of that. And so when AD came along, it's like, you know, you're going out to Morocco for six months to go on film, uh, NBC production, that's a big epic, like we, you know, all that business. And I remember getting there and you know, the sun, and it's like, oh, really? Is this work? Oh, wow, amazing, you know, where we rock around the deserts and stuff, it was beautiful. But within two weeks, this feeling, this kind of en we kind of return, this feeling of uh dissatisfaction. And it was really weird because I was literally in the midst of my dream that I dreamt of from the age of seven. Like that's how long I wanted to be an actor. So this job was literally the completion of like, you know, almost 30 years of kind of effort. And I remember in that just after two weeks, and I phoned my wife and I was like, I want to come home. She was like, What the hell is wrong with you? And she was like, Is it? And I was like, No, everyone's lovely, the role's great, everything's what it would be what I thought it would be. But I realized by having that job, and that really is a luxury as well. Like, you know, it only occurred because I actually got that job that we dramatic. But because of that, and I said to my wife, I said, Yeah, I realized that actually I had everything before I came to Morocco to do this job. No, I wasn't rich and I wasn't a hugely, you know, I wasn't doing an NBC thing, but I meant internally that journey I'd already been on. And this kind of external validation that an awful lot of actors that we have, you know, either that job's gonna make it right or all those years of beans on toast. If I get that job, it'll make it if I get the Marvel job, it'll all make it worth it, you know. And I realize that, you know, having the like I say, I feel very blessed and privileged about having that job. But actually having that dream job made me realize that it's just not real, it's not a real thing. And sometimes that energy within us as actors to pursue that thing that can't ever be attained can actually leave a lot of us feeling very unhappy for a long period of time. And that frustrations of actors' careers can often be an internal thing as opposed to actually anything that's happened externally. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, it does, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it was it was a it was a different one, and then in terms of you know, just like what was awesome, what was great, and all that, yeah, there's been a few. Uh one was Stuart a Life Backwards. I mean, that was an incredible role to play. Um this question, it's actually not the biggest or like the most intense. One of the most important projects to me is the one that I wrote 15 years ago called Maynard.

SPEAKER_05

Come, we ain't got time for this. Mum's cafe's not gonna relaunch itself. Here's to pay my bail, bro. Can you believe that please don't take switch? It took my weed and all. Move the kingdom on! We've got to put into the church to finalise everything. You're a tool, I know that. Just don't be a tool right now, okay? Okay, a won. What's going on in this? Are you high? Oh that I ain't going. Oh, you're going. You hide. Oh it's your chance to put all that behind you. That woman is told me her own stomach. You still come up with kitchen. Crack still is just as well. You're as much used as a bum hole on an elbow. Mate, and it's delirious though. You four bum off. The brothers grim, back in business again together. Still mulling. Money's sitting in the flat. I'll pop it in a bit to discuss Tintin. I got a dust to last, yeah. I've got gonna pick up a massive hole of Changalan. None of those will realize. Yeah. I'll do that.

SPEAKER_04

And when we wrote it 15 years ago, you know, it's been through so many kind of incarnations. And, you know, Goldie has played my brother, Sheridan Smith has played my wife, Joe Martin, who's like the doctor, she's been in it, Ellen Thomas. One of the readings we had Rafe Spahl in it, you know, and that's been on a mad journey. And then this year, well, last year, it actually got made for radio. And so hearing it after a journey of 15 years was amazing. And then it got recognized. Um, I recently just received the Imerson Award for 2021. And again, like, even though that was my very first script that I'd written 15 years ago, for some reason, with this cycle that's completed, it's now the most important. Not just in a in a personal way of like, you know, it was the beginning of my writing, but the end of that cycle. And so it's not the biggest job or the one that I got paid the most money on, or the one that was, you know, it it's it's quite personal as to why that one's important. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03

Wow, yeah, yeah. I like that. Wow. So that's that what that came out last year, did you say? On the radio.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and then the Emerson Awards was this year, directed by uh Kathy Burke. So, you know, this wonderful working with Kathy on that. Ellen Thomas, Kelly Shirley, Cobb No Hall Booksmith, you know, great cast who are doing this version. And yeah, for it to finally be made and finally be recognized. For me, that's for the personal reasons, that's one of the most important, definitely. That's lovely, man.

SPEAKER_03

I I I will uh I'm gonna try and tune in and listen to that. It's on the uh BBC, right?

SPEAKER_04

BBC Yeah, BBC iPlayer, they're they've got it on there. Okay, cool. Um called Maynard.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, nice, nice, nice. Yeah, I'll definitely look into that for sure. Um, I've just noticed your your your backdrop is pretty awesome. Where are you? Where are you?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, so I uh oh right.

SPEAKER_03

So I live in Nottingham now. I live in Nottingham. Okay, okay. I was gonna say it doesn't look very London.

SPEAKER_04

No, it's it's not it's not very London. So for your listeners, you know, I'm I'm uh I was born and raised in Leicester in the Midlands. Um, and as I could decided I wanted to do, you know, this crazy industry, I vowed never to return to the grey, miserable Midlands. It's got nothing for me. I'm going to London where the streets are paved with gold. And uh then you get to like 30 odd, and you're like, do you know what? I'm gonna go back. Ice, peace, and quiet. So me and my wife moved back here four years ago. Um, and where we live is actually where she grew up, and you know, it's actually been really interesting being here during what's been occurring in the world as well, you know what I mean? In a very, very different environment, and because you know, the work that we do, be it the recruitment or triforce, or you know, a lot of my social circles are still in London, still very much connected to that city life, but very much removed from it, and that's given its own little perspective as well on this little yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You get to actually uh have a break from that as well, right? I've I had a similar feeling. I live in a place called Discovery Bay, which sounds very magical.

SPEAKER_04

Um, it sounds very magical, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, it's it's not, uh, but it's nice, nice enough, it's pleasant. Um, but I didn't discover much there, so they were lying to me. Um, but it it did give me the opportunity to get away from because Hong Kong, I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's you know uh a metropolis, you know, it's uh millions of people right next to each other all the time. Um, and it was always nice to have that. I used to have to get a boat out to where I lived for about 20 minutes. Yeah, it was like a fair.

SPEAKER_06

That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it was cool. Um it kind of was cool. The novelty wore off a little bit, particularly when I was rehearsing late at night, and then I was like, Oh, I've got to run to get this boat, otherwise I'll be swimming home. Um, but uh, but yeah, it it was nice to get away from the from the uh the busyness and the hectic uh lifestyle for sure. So I can totally uh I can feel that that vibe. So Fraser has uh written for various various shows, and um I'll mention a couple of them uh in the long run, uh Eastenders, uh CBBC series lagging, uh, and Maynard, which you mentioned, um which is going to be on radio. Is writing something that you've always been interested in, or did that sort of come around out of nothing, or what how did you initially get into writing? What was that?

SPEAKER_04

Well, uh until very recently. I actually my my own and you know, you know, our own like memories, um, kind of broken memories kind of story. And I always thought that Maynard was the first thing I wrote. You know, it was kind of like that was my impetus for doing it, wanted to get my voice out there doing all that. But I was doing an interview recently, and they actually asked me about the acting. And they were like, where did the acting start? And in my head, that's a really clear story. And I was like, so when I was seven, I was in Bummont Lee's on an estate, single parent family, and I turned to my mum and said, at the age of seven, I want to be an actor. I mean, there was no internet, there was no reach. It was like, what the heck? It's not, and back in the 80s, it wasn't even a real job. Like, no, you could never, let alone a brown person. Like, no, this is insane. But my mum, being my mum, completely supported me and was like, as long as you're doing what you love, then you're never working a day in your life. And she really believed that. So she helped me pursue that. And then this interviewer said, But okay, then, so you've seven, and I was like, Yep. And we were like, but what happened at seven? And I was like, Oh, hang on. And I realized, and I and I had to think about it, and I remembered. And what actually happened was so I was at primary school and we were doing writing stories, and I wrote a story about an apple, and it was an apple that goes on this long journey, it would get eaten by a dog, which was really sad, but then the dog pooped it out and the apple was reborn, right?

SPEAKER_03

Love it, I love it.

SPEAKER_04

So I wrote this story. My teachers went, This is great, we're gonna do a play. So, what happened was in my primary school, they did a play of this apple story and they made me the apple. And it was only when I was recalling this story about the acting that I realized that actually I didn't start as an actor, and the desire wasn't for acting. The actual thing that started it was writing this thing. Wow. And I was like, oh my goodness, that's really interesting. You know, it's always been this actor rhetoric in my head and you know, focused up until the age of 20, knowing exactly where I was. And I realized it wasn't quite true, actually. And where it started was my love for words and writing. And it's quite interesting that things have come full circle. So, again, for you readers, the background I come from was not very affluent, it was quite frankly poor. So, you know, there was there was regular conversations and choices between heat and food. But my mum, not by me, I was a baby, you know. So actually, that kind of very middle class life of acting or writing all those things, you know, is very alien to me. But what my mum ensured was she always helped me pursue my passions. And I love to read, even at a very young age, and I don't know what it was. I look back a little bit and reflect on it, and it's like, you know, there was a part of you trying to put in the tools so that you can escape that trajectory and do those things, like you know, lots of that. But I was a huge avid reader, be it comics or books or stories. And I remember when I was eight, I had a reading age of 16. And my mum just kept getting me books from car boots. She couldn't afford books, but we'd go to car boots and she'd get loads of books for me and do all that thing. And actually, that pursuit of literature, that pursuit of words, that that's what words can do, how they can form your reality, how they can change your reality, how the words you use can alter your whole trajectory, how it can literally form where you are, was actually really, really important coming as a working class boy, mixed race in the 80s, because it was that, it was the words that enabled me that trajectory out of that situation. Don't get me wrong, my mum's hard graft and hours of like cleaning little things and doing all that. Absolutely. But in terms of that pursuit of it, it was that literature, it was the words that enabled me then to become an actor or then to become quite academic, you know, in my own times, or you know, have the skills to be able to set up uh an organization like Triforce, even though I don't have a degree or an A level. That kind of root knowledge there has done me in great stead throughout. And you know, here we are now where I would definitely class myself more as a writer and producer than an actor now. So it's kind of come full circle back into that thing, you know. And I'm very blessed to be in that position where don't get me wrong, acting was a beautiful joy, you know, did it for 30 years, it was incredible. But the freedom you get as a writer and as a as an exec producer is on a completely different level, and the stories you're in control of and the stories you can tell from that position are completely different to those, the ones that you have to serve as an actor. And for me, that's just fascinating and really enjoyable. Wow.

SPEAKER_03

Uh do you have a preference over writing or executive producing, or are they on parallel?

SPEAKER_04

I think they're on a parallel, and and in terms of the way we work with the production company, they tend to go hand in hand quite a bit, you know. Certainly when we set up, we didn't necessarily have the resources for script editors and those things. So it was a kind of like write the theme tune, sing the theme tune, you know, do all that. And they kind of become part and parcel. And even when I'm working with other writers as an exec, it's it's my experiences as a writer as to how I'm communicating. I'm not communicating as someone who's like, for instance, when you tell someone someone something's not quite right, you have to explain why. And then more importantly, well, you're a parent, Warren, you know this. Like you can't just point out the thing that the kid's done wrong. Like that's not gonna work. You know what I mean? There's no growth there. You kind of go, okay, well, this doesn't work, this is why. And then the really important thing is here's the solution.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I think being a writer before I became an executive enables me to understand that process more. And when you're, you know, no matter how busy you are, just saying to a writer, make it better, isn't gonna help their day or their career. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03

So are you saying then are you saying, Fraser, that I that I could be a really good executive producer then? Because I I think you'd be an excellent executive producer. Absolutely, absolutely based on the fact I have children. Awesome.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, basically, children are like having like 400 pilots from Netflix all over like one really condensed period of time. And if you can get through the parenting, you can do anything.

SPEAKER_03

It's good to know. Good to know. Feeling more inspired by the second. Um, awesome. Um, wow, it's very it's super interesting listening to you. Um, I wish we could talk all day, Fraser, but uh, I know that you are a busy man. Um, and my kids will be coming home and hanging off my leg in about half an hour's time. So and then we see exactly what kind of parent you are. Exactly. All right, so you mentioned Triforce, um the Triforce Creative Network. Uh, let's talk about that. That's how we met. That I I was heavily involved with all lots of things you were doing back in the back in the day, and um I miss I miss uh joining you guys and being part of all of that. But um what uh why did you start it? Why did that all come about? What was the um the objective and and the goal for for the company?

SPEAKER_04

Uh it came about I was 23 at the time, and you know, at that time, you know, literally it was me and Noel Clark, like we were the mixed race guys, do you know what I mean? And you know, my best mate at the time was one of the black guys, Jimmy Eccambola, you know, there wasn't a lot of us, but when you know, coming from my background, for me it's not just about ethnicity, and when I looked around, not many women, not many poor people like myself, you know, who are just like trying to make it work and actually 10 pounds quite a lot for a sandwich. Do you know what I mean? Like, where are those people here? Where are where is the ethnicity miss? Where's the all of it? And so in 2003, we were doing a play up in Edinburgh, and you know, Edinburgh's a different vibe, isn't it, mate? Like, everyone's like, So, what are you up to? You know, let me come and see your show. Here's my stuff. It's so collaborative and part of it, and you know, and then you come back down to London and everyone's just like, So, who's your agent? Yeah, like that's that's uh that's not really about me, is it? That's about you, and it's different. And so we were we were up there, and I just went, what if we could do this atmosphere, this environment of inclusion where there are no closed doors, there is no barriers to that entry. What if we could bring that back down to the acting fraternity of the UK and you know, particularly in London? And so that's where it started. And so we started off with club nights, as you know, Warren. Um, and just for your listeners, I have lots and lots of uh video and pictures of Warren being very which will never see the light of day. I think I might have to post them on Instagram. Um club nights, and again, you know, I'd had a little think about what are the obstacles because you know the conversation about diversity and inclusion was being had, it's just that the actual realities of it were so much worse than they even are today, you know. And it was like, what is the problem? And what you actually found is a lot of very privileged or powerful people in our industry wanting to do something, but actually being quite scared of those other demographics, like, and we're not just talking about aren't black people scary, like, because that is an aspect, that is a genuine aspect for a lot of people who don't have contact with certain communities, that they have a fear of it. But we're also talking about, you know, if we have a male-centered industry and then you know, you have a room full of women, that guy all of a sudden goes starts to free guy. Like, it's across the board. The privilege of our industry was very much across the board. And if you weren't from a very particular subset, it caused a lot of discomfort. So it was about how do you bridge that? How do you stop that? Because that needs to that does need to change because these power, uh these people in power were not going anywhere, and we as talent, wherever we're from, still need that access. So, how do we change it? So, what we did was we set up the club nights, and you know, we called it not working as opposed to networking, and what we did was we got just got everyone drunk, and we got loads of talent drunk, and then we got loads of casting directors and producers and directors and execs drunk, and that was the source, the the lubrication between those two things, where people are just drinking, they're they're having a good time, they're it you just traverse those things, and then what would happen was those producers, execs, and decision makers would bring people in the week after, like, I don't care if you've got an agent, come and audition for this. And that was the beginning of you know, the Triforce Creative Network of us as an organization being a bridge between those two worlds of our industry and those of underrepresented voices, and you know, it's been a long journey these 18 months to get to where we are now, but it's been an important journey, and I'm proud of what we've achieved. You know, we've changed the lives of literally thousands of people, we have fundamentally shifted on-screen talent, and you can see it when you turn on the screens. We've altered the routes of access and how casting directors and producers engage with talent full stop, let alone just diverse or inclusive talent. And so we're very proud of what we've managed to achieve over that time. Very proud.

SPEAKER_00

Tell us a little bit more about Triforce and why it's such an important festival.

SPEAKER_04

Well, um, I think it's an important festival because it's quite different. Actually, I was just talking to a filmmaker there, and we were talking about the prizes. Every prize is money-based or mentor-based, or it's about furthering your career, and actually, film festivals don't do that. So, what they do is they take on all these kind of filmmakers, in a sense, exploit them because they get a program and they give you a laurel. And actually, all you want is the money for your next film, so we give you the money for the next film.

SPEAKER_01

And I think as well, what we've done over the last it's been running seven years, and over the last five years we expanded it to be um a whole day that's not just about the screenings, so there's also a series of seminars about things like distribution or finding funding or getting into the film industry, and then we do hands-on workshops, we've got a camera workshop, we've got a PR workshop with the woman who did PR for the silent child that won the Oscar, and we've got an expo room, and we just try and add things on every year. So we've done we've actually funded quite a lot of films through the festival. So we've funded six micro short films for 17 to 19-year-olds with a partnership with Into Film this year that will be shown at the festival, and we've also um got a live pitching session at the festival with one of our big partners, uh Professor Stefan Alish Taylor, and we're gonna do a live pitch, and they're gonna pitch for up to £10,000 each for their short film idea. So, um, you know, if he likes all of them, he could uh could fund all of them.

SPEAKER_04

Do you know what I mean? It could be a very expensive day for him.

SPEAKER_00

And I would imagine then, as as part of this film festival when um the filmmakers are showcasing their work. You also have industry people in the audience so the work can actually be seen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, uh with our seminars, we have industry speakers on all the seminars, and they do tend to stay for the whole day and watch quite a lot of the films. So we have people who are producers, who are directors, who are funders, um, who are distributors, all coming and and seeing the films.

SPEAKER_03

You also have uh monologue slam as well, which is all part of that. Um, it's giving giving actors uh you know an opportunity, a platform to showcase what they can do in front of some some pretty uh powerful industry people, and um that's and also for it to be free.

SPEAKER_04

But that's the thing, you know. Like we've you know, we've seen these readings where it's like give me 250 pounds and then I will put on something where you get to perform in front of your own nan. And you're like, well, come on, man, that's that's and our industry was filled with that. There was a lot of very again, very privileged people taking advantage of that desire within us all to go, oh maybe if I put my hat in that ring and then it will come off, or maybe if I and there was a lot of that, and we're glad there's really not a lot of that now. Like you can't be doing that, and again, the process that we put in made sure that we weren't setting people up to fail. You know, there is an audition process, there is a practice there, there is then support after that before the show, where it's like we're gonna try and give you all the tools that you need to give the best performance in front of those people. So, again, it's about the support, how you support talent, not necessarily just what you do with talent, you know.

SPEAKER_03

And they they are taking place in London, in Birmingham. Is there one in Birmingham as well?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, well, you know, we had to stop obviously with the pandemic because there were a live event, but we were in seven cities in the end. Um you know, we did LA, Birmingham, Manchester, Wales, Bristol, you know, we we did uh we did a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of a lot.

SPEAKER_03

Did you notice a difference between because I I I I speak about this on another episode very briefly, but I had a stint in in the US, which was partly it's uh partly inspired by by spending time with you guys and uh picking up on that energy to get out there and you know make something happen. And um so I went to the US and I noticed a very different um approach to acting to performance to getting yourself out there. Did you notice something similar with the monologue slam in Los Angeles compared to in the UK? Were were performers more confident, more comfortable in that environment, uh, or or was it kind of similar? What was what was the deal with that?

SPEAKER_04

Do you know it was it's when I went when I did LA and we uh I was setting up a monologue slam there, it was actually a really interesting process because in some ways, you know, America is so far ahead of us. You know, uh what I equated it to was in in the US, everyone gets one shot. Like, no one wants to miss anything in the US. Like, so you will always get that first meeting, you'll always get that first audition. Nine times out of ten, we're not prepared for that first meeting, we're not ready for that first, you know. If your first audition is the lead in Jurassic Park and you've been doing adverts in the UK, like you'll get that audition, but you may never get to see him for Jurassic Park again. So there's an there's there's like a really high, elevated um element of risk in in America, but there's also kind of infinite opportunity, and because of the volume that operates over that, the number of shows, there is more opportunity. So there's like, and when you say it like that, there's it's almost idyllic paradise. It's like wow, great, let's let's all go to America. But then the realities of it are you know, like I say, everyone gets a shot, but they may not be ready, nepotism's quite rife over there. But in terms of the talent, it was really interesting seeing the American talent because you know, so you know, the Triforce Network is now 70,000 people, um, of which you know 40,000 of that are actors. So, you know, I had had seen quite a few actors over the last kind of decades, and the drive in America is real. And don't get me wrong, I know those actors over here who are like, I'm up at half five, I'm doing this, I'm on my thing. They've got eight monologues. Like, I know those actors over here, but they tend to be more the minority that are really on that. In America, everybody's on the hard grind, you know, everyone's drinking the juices, you know, running canyons filled with everyone jogging, you know. It's it's really quite interesting seeing that passion for it and the understanding that actually you need to put in like a whole heap of work. Like, this is gonna be hard. I need to work my hardest if I'm gonna get even a shot, which is what I had to do. Like, I'm brown, I'm poor. The efforts I had to make to get to where I am are exponentially greater than someone who was in a rich family and can just, you know, work for their uncle. Everyone in uh in America is working like they haven't got a shot, and for me that's really, really exciting. But also the flip side of that is that you know, my as you know, Warren can be a bit soul destroying out there as well, mate. It can be a real knock to your inner workings and and make you look at things that you may not want to look at, quite frankly, because it's really really hard. It's really, really, really hard. Yeah, Jimmy Ariolo, who was um the co-founder of Triforce, you know, he's done the last 10 years out there, and you know, he's had a great thing, you know, doing like Ted Lasso and he was in the arrow and working with Hemsworth on Dangerous Game for like, you know, he's had a great, great time out there, but my goodness, the work he's had to put in just into that raising of the profile, let alone the artistry of acting, or you know, it's it's not easy out there, guys. It's not easy out there.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and how did I mean uh this is probably a question I should put to Jimmy, I suppose, but um did do you know how he went about doing that? How he went by uh about raising his profile in that way? Like to you said he worked very, very hard on it. Well, what was the because I know when I went out there, I was a bit like I mean, similar to what you were saying before, like being ready for an opportunity. I mean, I wasn't specifically doing castings as such, but I was I was doing classes and I was uh I met a few agents and things like that, and you know, they they showed interest, but there was always that you need to go, you've got to get your paperwork, you've got to get this, that, and the other, you've got to be ready for everything, and and to sort of drop everything and get over there and um make it happen. And um, for me, I just wasn't ready for that at that time, and maybe at some point I will, who knows?

SPEAKER_04

But um it requires a real stamina and a real drive for, and that's the thing. Jimmy Jimmy wanted that so hard. Um so when me and Jimmy were doing a play, when was that one? So 2003 when we set up Triforce, and this kind of story sums up where mine and Jimmy's past diverged. And so we were in the dressing room, I was deleting the piece, getting lots lots and lots of awards, timeout awards, killing it, killing it, killing it. I'm sat there and I'm doing my bit of yoga in the corner, doing my meditation, doing my nice stretches and everything before the show. Look over, and there's Jimmy literally licking envelopes, like uh, fold, yeah, fold, like getting cotton mouth. I'm like, what are you doing, bruv? And he's like, Oh, I'm sending letters to casting directors. I'm like, why? And he's like, Well, come and see the show, innit? And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, but doesn't your agent do that? That was the literal the moment where my path went different to Jimmy's, and you could see the focus that Jimmy gave to directly the acting. You know, I gave my focus to Triforce and those things from that point on. You could see the difference in just how we were thinking, how we were behaving, and in what already was important to Jimmy and what was important to me. And you could see that divergence there, and that's what it requires. And that's what, particularly because there was so you know, even when I was coming about, like you know, there was there was tens of thousands of actors, now there's millions, like even Spotlight in this country in the UK, has like 200,000 members or something. You know, it's it's crazy, you know. I think it's 140, 150. Anyway, it's crazy, yeah. And that you know, that volume game, you have to, like I say, you have to work like you're hungry, like like you are poor and no one wants to give you a shot. Like you need to just do every day like that, because unfortunately, for actors, you literally look behind you, and there is a brother who's doing that, and he will be in the audition. You've sat there in the audition room, and you're like, Oh man, I could have I could have read that a couple more times. Maybe I should be off book, and you look to your left, and that guy is off book, he's dressed like the character, he's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you see that difference, and I think you know, if you're gonna want to be an actor now, that you've got to want it, and with that focus and that kind of almost mathematical precision, because literally someone else will, and so it's not just about passion, it's about how you apply that passion now, I think.

SPEAKER_03

Well, there we go, guys. Plenty to take on board there for any uh actors coming up in the in the industry right now.

SPEAKER_04

And it I've you've got to want it, and if you don't want it, don't do it. That's what I would say. If you don't want it, simply don't. There are so many easy. So I love my MMA, and uh I love my MMA. And when you speak to the coaches, you know, they often say to uh the students, like, you know, there are easier ways to make money than getting beaten up, right? Like you you the only reason you're gonna get in this ring is if you love it, you gotta want it, you gotta be hungry. Because if you're not, there are so many other ways to make money rather than getting beaten up. And I would say that to actors, I would say that to anybody in any of their jobs. And if this time of change has been anything, it's that opportunity to reflect a little bit. You know, we've all been all put on enforced meditation, you know, and so we get to reflect a bit. And if that is the thing, it's like look, there are so many ways that you can generate income. Make sure that the way you're generating income is the way that you love and care about, because that's what will keep you going when it's beans on toast and it's not big mansions, you know, and for actors in particular, you gotta want the acting, and if you want it, then do what's required. Don't try and you know, skirt around the edges. Because, like I say, there's thousands of people who are not skirting the edges anymore. They are not skirting.

SPEAKER_03

So dandy.org.uk, how how does that how did that come about and how does that differ from from Triforce and uh in terms of what you're trying to achieve and what your what the goals are for that?

SPEAKER_04

Well, well, the uh Triforce Creative Network was very much a talent development organization, you know. We find talent, we support talent, we promote talent, and then deliver talent. That that was the kind of trajectory. And we've been doing that for you know, like I say, 18 years. Um and what would happen was is our industry would constantly call us up and go, have you got this demographic, or have you got these directors, or have you got that? And the answer would be, of course we do. But then we would say to them, look, we don't charge actors, we've never charged a commission, we've never charged a membership, it's not how we operate. We always believed that this conversation around about inclusion needs the the onus needs to be put on our industry and that they need to support the work. And to be honest, finding that support for that 20 years was very, very difficult. I mean, we've never received support from the arts council because quite frankly, they don't understand about social mobility, and working class may be their buzzword now, but literally it's not been a thing for them, and so for us, it's it was always important not to charge the talent, really, really vital. But like I say, that creates challenges in you know, how do you do a big event like Monologue Slam if you're not charging the talent? So we would look to the the industry for that. And three years ago, I was kind of like, look, Triforce is incredible for the talent and you know, for what we've done front-screen talent, but we need to make this sustainable, and so dandy is the answer to that. And what it is, it's the industry-facing side of the network, and we work with production companies and broadcasters to help them crew and recruit inclusively. So, for instance, we were working you know, we were working with um Hattrick. We were working with Hattrick on Have I Got News for You? They were looking for a broader pool of writers because, quite frankly, all of their writers are one tone. Came to us, we worked with them, found some talent, work with that talent, boom, boom, boom. Those four people are now writing regularly, and they've written on the last three seasons of Have I Got News For You, even though they were never on the radar before. So, our argument, you know, as we've talked about before, Warren, is the talent is there. It's usually that our industry hasn't paid attention in the right ways or listened enough. So, Dandy is that way of going, look, no, we can be that bridge to explain to you that actually talent is there, they are ready, they just need that connection. So that's been going incredibly well. And when we set it up three years. Ago this time last year, we were working with six clients Expectation Media, who do the Steph Show and some Incredible Things. We're working with Hatrick, working with Monkey Kingdom, who do um like Med in Chelsea and those kind of shows, and Don't Hate the Players. Six. It was great. Then the pandemic happened and our industry imploded for three months. Like nothing, you know, even East Enders wasn't being filmed. And there was great concern because we were really starting to make moves. Like the we were getting senior people, like development producers, decision-making people, into these offices, and then it kind of started. We're like, okay, what's gonna happen now? And then we had the tragic and awful murder of George Floyd and the subsequent protests. And a very strange thing happened within the entertainment industry, is that for the very first time in literally decades, they understood and they listened. And when our industry came back online, they came to us and went, hang on, you're the guys who have been doing it for 20 years. We're now listening, we are now ready, we're now doing that. And we were kind of like, okay, we've we've heard and seen this before. You know, I'm old enough to have been there when Michaela was talking about support, our you know, Lenny Henry, Idris, Riz, Westminster. I've been there, and what tends to happen is a little bit of noise happens. Our gods of our industry say it's a watershed moment, and then nothing happens. You know, that's the cycle. So we were kind of skeptical about it, and that's not what happened. And don't get me wrong, our industry is still very racist, misogynistic classics, you know, what put in the word that you want. But actually, there is a fundamental understanding that they are the problem, and that this issue that is caused by lack of access is actually been caused by them. And now, so when we set up Dandy three years ago, up until last year, we'd managed to place a hundred years, a hundred people over two years, which was great. I mean, that's 50 people a year who would never have access to the industry. That's brilliant. Between last September and now, we've placed over 400 people. So you can see the receptivity of the industry has gone pop and it's literally done there. Well, like I say, we were working with six production companies this time last year. We are now working today with 58. That's incredible. And we're working you know, we're crewing up Killing Eve, we're crewing up Made in Chelsea, we're crewing up um Hannah for Amazon, but we're you know, we're but we're also doing um, like I say, made in Chelsea in the proms, you know, or create it's across the board. And we've put out over 500 roles since January alone. And when you look at how the industry has shifted in terms of that receptivity, that's been incredibly exciting for us. And so now, you know, that extension of the Triforce Creative Network is entirely sustainable, people are getting work, and because of the people we represent, i.e., those most impacted by this bloody pandemic, that's quite satisfying. That those people who are having the roughest trot, at least we can put money on their table, pay the bills, cover the mortgage. Do you know what I mean? That kind of work. And then on top of that, what's now happening is because of this volume that's now operating, we're really seeing what the real problems are in terms of this recruitment. But because of this volume, even if the conversation goes away, we're inside now. Senior roles, producers, executives, casting like those decision-making roles, we now have much broader pools of people. So, like I say, even when kind of the door closes, we're on the inside now. And for me, that's the sustainability, that's the excitement. That that's what's happening. And you'll see in that in commissioning trends starting to come down now, and commissioners are asking for different things, and how they want them implemented and who they want making those kind of shows is being different, you know. So that's dandy, and it's working really, really great. And it works at all levels, you know. We work with senior talent, but we also work with entry level, so you know, doing a big thing with the BBC for Shetland for the trainees, but it's not just schemes, it's not just programs, which our industry is so obsessed with. It's like, no, give people a job, they are ready. And now, you know, I I know I sound very optimistic, and I know you know me, Warren. Like you've heard my miserable phrase of triforce going, oh, the racist, the misogynist, ah, you you you know that guy as well. We are definitely in a different time now, and like I say, it's not utopia, but nonetheless, the the work, it's not work to do the work now. Like you'd be in a room and you have to explain that there's an issue around discrimination or an issue about access before you could even go, and hi, I'm the guy who can solve it. And you realize that you're kind of waving and you're realize that you're trying to solve something that they don't understand. Now that conversation's done, everyone knows there's a problem, everyone knows it needs to be fixed. We can just actually just get on with the solutions. And for me, that's exciting. Wow.

SPEAKER_03

Nice. And following on from that, you have recently uh produced a uh panel show. Um Sorry I didn't know, which is based on black history. When did that journey begin? And how did you face um particular challenges getting that getting it made?

SPEAKER_04

I am Fraser Ayers. I'm Minnie Ayers, CEO of the Travels Creative Network and Dundee, and the executive producer of Sorry I Didn't Know.

SPEAKER_02

Jimmy Atenboler! I'm Jimmy Appenboller. I'm an actor, but right now I'm really happy and proud of being the host of Sorry I Didn't Know. History with a touch of colour. ITV1, I'll believe it.

SPEAKER_04

So we wanted to make a really commercially viable panel show that everyone can relate to, but is actually about black history. The stories that we've got to tell are actually for everybody.

SPEAKER_02

Our next round is called Sorry I Didn't Know. It's a very funny line. Sorry I didn't know. Some of my best friends are black. Sorry I didn't know. If I don't know that much, maybe that's because there's not much of it out there, you know, on my TV screens, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Crazy TV, they're actually engaging with key partnerships to get the right people who actually have experience in this field to make that content for people.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that's being reflected as well in the people who are coming together to make this show. People are there, we just have to look a bit harder.

SPEAKER_02

I'm really excited that the team captains are not men, they're not white men, and they're not even black men, they're two beautiful, amazing black women that represent black extra uh Chizyakadulu and Judy Love. Feels like a family. It feels like everybody's on the same page, everybody's really excited about the show, and they see the importance of it, filling a really important space.

SPEAKER_01

We're now ourselves and other organizations in a position to take advantage of this gap, of this receptivity to really push a change through. There's an open door now, and we are literally just as fast as we can. This really does feel like a moment that promises real change, and I really hope that's the case.

SPEAKER_04

That would that was a real challenge of a pro uh a process. We made the original back in 2016 for that, and again, it's it's it's it's a wider conversation about what is black content, yeah, what is that kind of black content that will be commissioned. You know, when you look at what commissioners will actually commission, it's usually black trauma, black pain, um, or they want us on estates, you know, jocking people and stuff like that. There's it's not very nuanced in terms of what would be commissioned, or you know, when you, you know, we don't call only fools and horses a white comedy. We don't call, you know, we it's just a comedy, but Desmond's is definitely a black comedy, and in the long run, it's a black comedy. Like, why? It's just a comedy. So for me, there's always been this conversation about what's allowed to be shown from these communities and also what is wanted, and all those kind of things. And my argument is that to get beyond tokenism, the content has to speak to all parties. And I'll give just a very quick um example for your listeners: Black Panther. It's just about superheroes, it embraces black culture and spreads that word and embodies it in celebration, but but it's but it's just a superhero film. That's why everybody can watch it. Okay, it's not tokenized, it's not just for one particular demographic, it is for everyone to enjoy. So for me, that was the conversation about uh comedy panel shows. One, I think comedy panel shows are just like like there's barely any women on them, and there's certainly barely any brown people. I'm like, okay, this needs to be rectified. And so we came up with the idea, and I I remember I remember picturing it and them going, but black history is not very funny, is it? And you go, you know, you know, like we've got more than just being slaves and the oppression, like we've got kings and queens, and you know, where we were still the richest, like Masamus is still the richest guy ever to live. Like, and what you realize is that an awful lot of this rhetoric, um, particularly in the UK, this lurch towards the right, it's always down to a lack of knowledge, mate. And people can only go, well, there were no black people in the war, there were no Asians in the war, because they don't know that there were black people in the war, there were Asians, there were women there, and so you can't say that if you do know it. So for me, it was a big part of going, okay, I want to create a show that speaks to everybody, not just to the demographics that you know would primarily go, Well, I want some of my history to be on TV. I actually want white people to watch that, and the way you do that is by making it again non-tokenized, fully inclusive, open arms, and you just make a panel show, and that's the thing. Yes, there are black people in it, yes, we have two female judges, um uh team leaders, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But it's just a panel show, it's just like QI, it's just the same thing. So, as black people watch those shows, and there's no question about that, same way. White people can watch this show and just laugh, it's just funny, it's just interesting in the same way that QI is interesting. You don't have to be a professor to be into QI, it's just interesting the same thing, and what we managed to do with that was quite successfully show that that you know what is black content, like no, it's just content, it's for everybody, and we had incredible audiences. We are hopeful for a second series. Um, so hopefully that will be on our screens, and people will get into see more of that and getting entertained by that. And when we got the data back, it was really, really interesting because you know, without a doubt, we did have the black audiences. Um, one in five black people watching TV were watching our show. Brilliant, great. But then you drill into the data and you realize how many white people tuned in, how many white people kept tuning in, how many women saw themselves reflecting on that, and that they were a primary demographic. And again, what has happened with the commissioners and the broadcasters going, oh my goodness, it's weird, isn't it? You can make a show like that, and everyone watches it, and we're like, that's what we've been telling you. And when you when you have these conversations, it's just a kind of short-sightedness on their part and a perception. It's like, of course, Black Panther would make you more money, of course. Of course, a show that speaks to everyone is going to give you broader, more audiences, of course. But rather than banging the drum, we got to prove it and we got to show it, and that has made a fundamental difference, and that has led to a snowball of commissions for Triforce Productions in the work that we're doing, and also for me as the creator of it, you know, people going, okay, Fraser, like the way you came up with that. What about this? And so we are seeing that content come more to the front. That's not just tokenized or about one demographic for one demographic. No, we're seeing global productions, we're seeing open productions, and for me, that's the change, and that's really exciting. And SIDK being kind of like a kind of flag bearer for that new conversation. Again, it's something that we're very, very proud of.

SPEAKER_03

Exciting. Um, yeah, well, it's hope. Let's hope then for a for a second series. And we're gonna play a little game, and then uh we're gonna have Fraser Ayers' final thoughts, and then we are done for the episode. Um, are you ready to play? Would you rather? Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready. Awesome. All right, number one. Uh, would you rather talk to animals or speak all human languages? Talk to animals. Uh, would you rather be reborn into the past or the future? The future. Okay. Number three, uh, would you rather be able to run 200 miles an hour or be able to fly 20 miles an hour?

SPEAKER_04

That's really easy. I would like to run for 200 miles an hour because, Warren, I'm going to be clear about this. You can probably achieve escape velocity at 200 miles an hour and then fly from that.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, you gave that some serious thought. I love it. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_04

When it comes to super powers, I really do give it some serious thought.

SPEAKER_03

Awesome. All right. Uh number four, would you rather clean a rest stop toilet or work in a slaughterhouse for a year? Rest stop toilet all day long. Uh number five. This is a bit of a strange one. Uh, would you rather eat dinner alone for a year or have to take showers at a public gym for a year?

SPEAKER_04

Uh eat alone for a year, man. I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't do the gym thing. It'd be too much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Uh all right, Fraser. Uh your final thoughts for the episode, please. Something uplifting, uh, an approach to life dealing with positive and negative change, that sort of thing for for our audience, please.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, this is my final thought, right? So we're all going through like the most crazy time of flux and change. And when that happens, we can often think to ourselves that it we crave security, right? And we can often think to ourselves, yeah, I just need to try and save what I've got and keep here, bum, bomb, bomb, bomb. And changing work, changing environments can be really, really scary to us. What I like to say to your listeners is this period of change is also the best opportunity for change for yourself. And if there are things in your life that aren't working, like when we come out of all this lockdown, and you realize that you're gonna go back to a job that you hated five years ago, then don't go back to that job. Don't do it. This time of reflection, this enforced meditation, as I call it, has enabled us to ask all those terrifying questions of ourselves that none of us wanted to do. That's why we have cinemas and iPads. We don't really like to ask big questions like, who am I, what do I want, what am I here for? But we've all had to ask them. And what I'd say to your listeners is don't be afraid to answer them in the most positive, best way for you possible. And if you found that you're there's things in your life that you're not enjoying or aren't quite working, even though they may represent a piece of security, don't be afraid to let them go. Because this next chapter, this next chapter is going to be really interesting for all of us, and you kind of want to be in the best place for that because there's lots of goodies to be had. And that would be my advice to the listeners.

SPEAKER_03

I love it, love it, Fraser. Thank you so much for today. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. So good catching up with you as well, brother man. That was just lovely. Cool, man. Well, uh, have an uh enjoy the rest of your day. And love to the family, man. Yeah, say hi to Minnie for me as well. I haven't seen her for a long time either. Yeah, take care, man.

SPEAKER_04

Big love, soldier. Yeah, we are in a place where women are underrepresented, black people are underrepresented, social mobility is an issue, and until we do that equity and you know, fatten it out a little bit, we're not going to be actually getting to that wonderful state of equality that we're all aiming for. Our entertainment industry is so far behind in what we would term as equality. People are left behind, people do fall through the net, and in different ways, be it your resources and your demographics, or the fact that you know you you may have different life circumstances, and I think our industry as a whole don't always get diversity inclusion right, because that our decision makers are primarily from a very, very particular demographic, the whole thing boils down to inequality. So, one of the problems our industry faces is this lack of um diversity of experience, and what it means is that as we understand that bigger and wider stories need to be told, if we can work in a way where the experience of our industry that has been built up over this time is actually combined with this fresh creativity, these new ideas, this way of looking at work from the outside looking in, then I think we can start to make that really, really excellent content that really starts to traverse those demographics and those worlds. It's it's it's quite interesting how our industry um tokenizes our parcels off you know content made by people who aren't necessarily from those usual demographics I was talking about. And what tends to happen is that we have black programs, we have black comedies like Desmond's or In the Long Run, but we've never called Only Falls and Horses a black com uh a white comedy. It's interesting how history and particularly black history is perceived in this country. It's called black history when actually it's just history. Whenever we see black stories, primarily on TV, you know, they're kind of ghetto-wise, they're they're very violent. Or when we're talking about historical facts, they're very they're much very much based on our oppression, they're based on our trauma and exposing them. When actually, you know, if you speak to anybody amongst our communities, we have so much to celebrate. We have kings and queens and pioneers and inventors, and we very rarely get to see those things on our TV. And again, I think that's part of the shifting conversation, is that rather than calling it black history, we just say it is history, and within that history, yes, there are some very, very negative things that have happened, but we're also missing out all that positivity, all that warmth that is to be celebrated. I think we're definitely in a time where uh those frustrations have kind of come to the fore. I think we're seeing that with the protests, and I think we're seeing that with more and more people being vocal in our industry because what can often happen is there is a small window of change where that conversation is very live and very present. Um, but unfortunately, that door usually closes and the same issues usually kind of circulate. What we're seeing now during this time, you know, on the back of the Black Lives Matter movement and the tragic murder of George Floyd, that actually this period of time is longer, and so we have more and more high-profile people putting their head above the habit to make sure that they are heard. We need equity, and to do equity, we do need to raise people up, we do need to spotlight and profile talent, be it working class talent, but be it underrepresented talent from across the board. That is essential, and people do say, you know, I'm feeling left out at the moment as a white male. Well, it's okay, we will get to that point where it's all inclusive again, but for now it is about allowing more people in, it just has to be.